Yes, you are the man: Resin & Hardener, also tools, and pointers on how to repair a 8" long and 3" wide deck area right along that thin wood center line - what ever that is called. >Is there a mail order place or are there local stores like boating etc. that carry stuff. >Doc, much thanks and hope to meet you sometimes. >H the H.

Okay, as I said in the email earlier this evening, I'm gonna give you some info on all this and also CC it to the mailing list to mebbe dispel a little of the misinformation that's been bouncing around on the subject. This is gonna get into some depth, so fasten your seat belts, it's gonna be a bumpy ride.First, materials with a few tools and then your specific ding repair.

First off-Resin. Or, more accurately, resins. There are three kinds used in surfboard making and repair: laminating resin, sanding resin and glossing resin. They are a lot alike, but the biggest difference is that sanding and glassing resins contain a styrene wax.

What the hell is that for, you ask. Well, basic polystyrene (polyester) surfboard resin doesn't really harden if it's in contact with air. The wax, just a little bit dissolved in the resin itself, acts like an oil slick or a soap film and comes to the surface of the stuff and makes a very, very thin film between the resin and the air. That lets it harden enough to sand. Laminating resin doesn't have any wax, so later layers of resin-sanding and glossing, stick to it better.

Mostly, I use sanding resin for all my ding repairs. To get the wax off and let the next layer to stick to it, I use either a little acetone to wash the surface wax away or I just sand it. The surfboard factories buy 55 gallon drums of laminating resin and styrene wax by the 5 gallon bucket and make their own sanding resin. You add about as much wax as catalyst. (see below)

Now, you can't get surfboard resin at a hardware store or a marine store. What you do get is known (disparagingly) among us ding repair types as 'boat resin ". It is usually a waxed resin and it goes off reddish brown and brittle. Surfboard resin goes off water-clear and pretty tough. There are reasons for that, but I am gonna ignore them right now. I do boat repairs too, and get boat resin by the drum for that.

Epoxy boards and epoxy resin are a whole other thing that I'm gonna skip right now except for one thing- WEST resin sucks.

Okay, you went out and got some sanding resin. You also got Catalyst with it, or else you got ripped off- which is generally MEKP: Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide, which has a material toxicity sheet about six pages long and stings like hell when I get it underneath a fingernail. Also comes in a couple of flavors, or more accurately, strengths. Generally, 'home use' catalyst is about 2% to 5% MEKP while the stuff for industrial use is a lot stronger concentration. It breaks down with age, heat and sunlight, so don't store it on the windowsill.

How much do you use? Well, that depends. I was a philosophy major, so I can say that about just about anything, but here it means something. You have to use more catalyst if it's cold or humid, less if it's hot or in the sunlight. The heat and the sun make the reaction go faster, cold and damp slower. Another thing to keep in mind is what is really going on: the catalyst is working to make longer molecules out of shorter ones. If you use more catalyst, the reaction goes faster and the molecules are not as long as they would be if you used less, which means they are kinda brittle. Use as little as you can get away with, in other words.

A bit more on catalyst: as the stuff goes off, it gives off heat. Exothermic reaction. So, if you are putting on a thick layer of glass or filler, use less catalyst because as it goes off, it heats up, which makes the resin go off faster, which gives off more heat, which....you get the picture. I once saw a board catch fire during a rushed repair-waaaay too much catalyst. Go easy, you have all winter, right?

Okay, all dings need some kind of filler. For that I use a powdery substance called Cabosil (or Aerosil) mixed with resin to the consistency of soft ice cream or vaseline. Wad it in, let it dry and either Surform before it gets completely hardened (that tool the Stanley company makes that looks like a cheese grater-get a small one) or sand it to shape when it has hardened completely. More on sanders and sanding in a bit. I usually use about an ounce (fluid ounce, that is) in the bottom of a paper cup and I wind up slowly stirring in about four times as much Cabosil powder, by volume. Use maybe 25% more catalyst with this stuff than you would with plain resin. Like coloring agent/pigment, Cabosil slows things down.

It sometimes helps to make a mold with masking tape for the filler. This will save you a lot of sanding later.

Glass Cloth is....pretty much glass cloth. There are surface treatments that are used on it, like the Volan process that makes nice old longboards that light green color, there are many, many different ways of weaving it, but what you need to be concerned with is the weight of it- how many ounces per yard. They range from 0.5 oz cloth (good for airplane models) to around 20 oz for really heavy stuff. Generally, though, 6 oz. or 8 oz. is the way to go. Cut with scissors, tape it down with masking tape taut across the ding, and when the resin is at a 'hard gel' stage, cut it along the tape with a razor blade or Stanley knife or my favorite, the #1 XACTO knife. Use a disposable 'chip brush' to brush in the resin so the cloth is completely saturated and just about transparent and brush out all the air bubbles, above and below the cloth. I use a natural rubber squeegee for big ding repairs, fixing busted boards and all that, but it took a good long time to learn that particular skill. You can do good work with a brush right away.

Use no more than 6 ounces of resin, maybe a dozen to fifteen drops of catalyst Sand the edges down a little to feather in the cloth, make a smooth transition. Sand the whole area of the glass lightly. Hand sanding is fine, with maybe 120 grit paper- 3M is good, so is Norton Abrasives. If you are comfortable and experienced with power sanders, by all means use them except belt sanders. A good all-around ding repair sander is the random orbit type-I use a Porter Cable.

Now, tape around the whole ding with masking tape, say an inch away from the glass edges. Brush on some resin that you have added just a few drops of acetone to-it makes it go on smoother. Take special care to get it on and into the edges of the cloth you sanded. When the resin is just past wet and getting tacky, remove the tape. The edge of your gloss will get real smooth-or it should, anyways. It doesn't take that much resin for this either-maybe a couple or three ounces. Use a lot of catalyst with this, say ten drops or even a little more. This is, after all, a very thin layer.

You may want to give the whole thing a little light sanding with wet and dry paper when it has really, really completely hardened. Start with 150 grit, sanding bigger and bigger areas (the ding itself, then an inch bigger, then a bit more ) as you go from 150 to 220 to 400 to 600. Again, the 3M or Norton wet&dry paper is very good. You can even polish it, if you have the right stuff-a disc polishing machine and the right polishing compound, but that's overkill.

Okay, the materials list--- About a quart of sanding resin*- you may need less, but more dings happen. Catalyst, a quart of acetone#, wax paper cups# (the 4 ounce or so size is good), popsicle sticks #(for stirring and mixing), masking tape#, Cabosil^, glass cloth^, razor blades#, chip brushes# and sandpaper#. The stuff marked * is surf shop or mailorder, # is a hardware store item and the ^ stuff is boatyard/marine store OR hardware store (sometimes) OR surf shop or mailorder. You might also pick up some of the green painter's plastic gloves at the hardware store-makes life a whole lot easier.

Also, if possible, do this in a warm but very well ventilated place. No open flames and stuff like that, all these chamicals are REAL flammable, some fumes are explosive. If you have an Organic Vapor Mask, use it. I use one when I work indoors, both with resin and sanding.

For your particular deck ding along the stringer, I would

1) clean off any and all wax on it, in it or near it with a putty knife followed by a good scrubbing with acetone and a rag.

2) If the ding has torn the original cloth, pick up the edge with your clean putty knife and get out any crushed foam, etc.

3) Mix up a wet batch of cabosil and resin (thinner than usual, about as thick as yogurt)and, holding the ding open with your putty knife, slop it in, doing your best to get it into all the recesses and crevices of the ding. Let the old glass down gently, go have a beer and knock off for the night.

4) It's dry-sand it smooth and put the cloth to it, as I mentioned above. You will probably need a piece of cloth at least two inches longer and two wider than the whole ding. Cut to rough size with plain old scissors.

5) Sand and gloss, like above. Sand with wet and dry if you want to, it's gonna be under wax so it doesn't matter as much as it would on the bottom or on a rail.

Go surfing, or have another beer-you've earned it. Fact is, I might have one right now myself. I've earned it too.

Okay, one last thing...mailorder sources for resin, Cabosil, cloth and such. I use Destination Surf, but I am a wholesale account, buying gallons and gallons, and I don't think they sell retail. For a better idea than I have of all the mailorder stuff and outlets,check out Pete Brown's enormous links page at http://magna.com.au/~prfbrown/tubelink.html . There is also Atlantic Surfing Materials (see Surfer Magazine ad) and some others. Also, most surf shops sell resin by the pint or quart. Just make sure you get sanding resin.

Good luck,
Doc, having a beer, thanks

Can you tell some custom suit makers up this way in Santa Cruz for my next purchase???
Out of the Yellow Pages: Heat Wave Custom Wetsuits 2301 Mission Ave. (408) 458-2960 Hotline Wetsuits (my choice) No address listed (408) 462-5919 O'Neil's (4) numbers/addresses listed Surfshop is 1149 41s (408) 475-4151 I ordered a custom Rip Curl for my son a number of years ago, but that was when we were on vacation down south and were at their shop near Trestles. They just took a bunch of measurements and filled out a form. Shops that sell Rip Curl (I think Santa Cruz Surf Shop and possibly Arrow Surf and Sport) or any other brand can usually take the measurements right there for ya and order what you want.

Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Airline fees for boards?
Date: 11 Dec 1997

I flew American Trans Air(ATA) to maui and they charge $25 each way for a board. If you have a coffin bag you can easily get a couple boards on for the same price. With most airlines the price for taking boards seems to vary with the mood of the person at the counter. Sometimes I get them on for free and other times I get charged. I try to travel light, 1 coffin bag and a duffle bag and backpack. The coffin and duffle are checked as two pieces and the backpack is carry on. This way when asked how many pieces you are checking in you can reply just two. Sometimes it lets you get away without an excess bagage charge for the boards. Always call airlines ahead of time to be sure of what the offical price is. This way you can argue if you are overcharged at the counter.

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997
Subject: Re: Patagonia Epoxy Boards

> Has anyone heard anything for better or for worse about the new Patagonia > Epoxy Surfboards? Supposed to be 70% stronger than normal boards and 15% > lighter. Patagonia even will replace one if they break. I'm looking at > their 9' Traditional longboard. dimensions are something like 2 7/8 thick, > 21" wide, Shaped by Michael Junod. Anyone ever hear of Michael Junod? his > shapes? Also wondering if anyone sees the positives and negatives of epoxy > VS poly resin. > > Thanks, >

Nick Epoxy - stiff Poly - flexible Epoxy is about 3-4 times the cost of polyster resin. Epoxy is only as good as the material that goes with it. It should be used with S-glass, Carbon or Kevlar to get the full mechanical strength value. Epoxy and E-glass, No. Major of boards are made out of poly and E-glass becauase it is cheap. Most bottom of boards are one layer of 6oz E-glass. If you add a 4oz layer to the 6oz that would get you the approximately 70% extra strength cheaply with a little extra weight. Be sure the core is not styro, one crack or hole and it sucks up pounds of water. Good Luck

Subject: Re: Unbreakable surfboard
Date: 20 Nov 1997

Hmmm, I'm not an expert on the art of making surfboards but... Patagonia seems to be trying to make less breakable surfboards rather than unbreakable ones. Most of what they're doing seems pretty smart. They're using polystyrene cores. I don't understand why people continue to use polyurethane blanks. Polyurethane blanks are expensive and the fact that their strength varies with the distance from the skin means they aren't ammenable to automated shaping. They are using epoxy rather than polyester or vinylester resin. Epoxy is lighter and stronger. Given that I keep boards forever I'd rather spend some extra money up front. They are putting triple stringers on some of the boards. It's a small weight gain and obviously a large durability gain. Foam is not that strong under compression or strain. They're using S glass rather than E glass.

I haven't read anything other than Patagonia's propaganda about the difference between the two types of fabric but it's my impression that surfboard producers may have experimented with a lot of different fabrics but haven't really incorporated their experience into their production boards. If you look at wavesurfing boards you can see a lot more experimentation and progress in recent history than you'll see in surf boards.

What I don't like about Patagonia's boards is their price and the fact that they sell you an off the shelf shape and will not custom make boards for you. I suppose that the boards have higher prices because they cost more to make and if I really wanted a custom board I could just as easily go to a local shaper. Having written all that...

Buck wrote in article . > Patagonia is trying to make an unbreakable surfboard...This is the > stupidest I repeat stupidest thing in the world...for 3 reasons. > 1 If they make an unbreakable surfboard there will be less of a demand for > surfboards, and Shapers, Airbrushers, Laminators, Sanders, and Foam > companies will go out of business. So we surfers should buy inferior boards to support the industry that's selling us the shoddy products? > 2 They say "it is environmentally helpful"...now let's think about that... > if a board won't break it won't decompose...and I think that we all know > the rest. I don't buy the Patagonia line about environmental friendliness. As I understand it they claim that because the boards are more durable they'll occupy less volume in our landfills. I don't think that used surfboards are (in terms of quantity) a large problem in landfills. > 3 Finally if they make an unbreakable surfboard then the demand for > surfboards will go down, the production of surfboards will go down, and > shapers won't be able to advance their shapes, and the art of surfboard > shaping won't progress. Surfboard design is probably (unfortunately) driven mostly by a very small segment of the surfing population. Overall I think Patagonia is trying something interesting and (to me) obvious. They're probably not in it for the money since most of the money in the surf industry is in the clothing and accessory market (which they're already in) rather than in the production and sale of surfboards.

Subject: Re: Patagonia Longboards
Date: 11 Jan 1998

Nope, but they are probobly as expensive as their clothing and not worth it. Oh I don't know. The only Patagonia product I have is a sailing jacket I bought about 5 years ago at the company's seconds store in Ventura for half-price. I don't sail, but this waterproof yet comfortable unit continues to serve me well as a raincoat and for heavy-spray powerboating. The hood fits perfectly, like a wetsuit hood, and the cuffs/waistband are neoprene. Wearing this jacket is like wearing a wetsuit, but warmer and drier. I'm sure there are exceptions, but most everything I've seen Patagonia and its helmsman, Yvon Chouinard, turn its/his hand to has been top quality. There are a million cliche's to cover that...you get what you pay for, etc. Since the last $500+ standard-materials longboard I bought was heavily stresscracked on a mushy 3' day when it was brand new, I'm glad people like Chouinard and Bob McTavish are pushing surfboards into new realms of technology. I'd very much like to see the Patagonia and McTavish boards up against standard foam/glass/resin and epoxy boards in a "road test" in one of the surf mags, with simulated dinging and cracking situations as well as surfability tests. Are you there, Mr. Hawk? ;=> Will

From: njtravis@ux5.lbl.gov (Nancy Jean Travis)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Hats during surfing?
Date: 16 Jun 1997

>> Anybody out there wearing a hat while surfing? Any recommendations?

Waaa. I lost my best hat at Tower Ten. It was a khaki bush hat with a red Quicksilver logo. If u found it, I want it back! Lost at San Elijo on June 4th or 5th. Actually I threw it into the face of a wave as a trade so I reckon Huey is wearing it.

I surfed there three days with no wetsuit and my shoulders were starting to look like rawhide soo I decided to trade the Gath for this big bush hat. It had a stampede drawstring so you could tighten it under your chin. The surf was excellent Cardiff peaks at 4 foot, big enough so no one in the lineup could see your ride, they'd just see you disappear..Conditions which encourage silly behavior in me.

There were some pretty good surfers out there, they breed at Swami's, so I figured I wouldn't get any waves unless I bluffed them, its impossible to impress these guys with my actual surfing...So I decided to take off on anything, just to disappear from the lineup. My first wave was good but I tripped on the popup and got stuck on one knee. so I grabbed the rail with my left hand, grabbed the hat off my head with my right and shoved it in the face of the wave. It just felt bitchin, the normal reaction to warm water, hot sun, and cool water sprayed off the wave all over me. Feeling like a movie star I paddled back out with this drippy wet bush hat but no one had seen my hat trick. No worries, I was amusing myself. So I got deeper and eventually got caught inside a very beautiful rogue set which buried me and ripped the stampede string. I rescued the hat and now its got a string hanging loose and all this stuff hanging in my eyes. The next wave I started paddling for suddenly looked serious so I threw the hat into the pit and said TAKE IT! I want the wave! I miss the hat but I made the wave. So yeah, that would be a khaki bush hat with a broken stampede string ...and a Quicksilver logo. fang

In article, gleshna@aol.com (Gleshna) writes: >Longboards paddle faster than shortboards. >Shortboards turn and accelerate faster than longboards. >Which has the fastest top speed? What are used in large waves and why? >What do windsurfers use for speed runs?

Windsurfers found out quickly that smaller, narrower boards are faster in planing speed situations, and as soon as they perfected the way to get up and going without standing on the board and pulling the sail up, they quit riding floaters for wavesailing and highspeed runs. The only need for length in large waves is for paddling power, since you can't ride what you can't catch. The longer the board, the faster it can go in hull-speed-limited situations, without planing, since the maximum speed of a displacement hull is a function of waterline length. As soon as you break loose and step up on a plane, the less surface area, the better. This is why Laird and the tow-in crew use 7-8' boards about 16" wide for riding huge waves, strapped in. If you don't have to worry about paddling to catch the wave, smaller (and heavier) is faster.

From: kithill@aol.com (KITHILL)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: FCS Fin System - G1,2,3,4,5, or 6?
Date: 16 Oct 1996 hi just got a new custom board and have FCS sockets. The default skegs I was given were labeled G6. Iíve been surfing on my board for a month and so far the board is not working for me compared to my old board. my 6'4 board feels like a slug on takeoff and Iím having trouble making quick initial direction adjustments to go down the line. I actually have to drag my hand to swing the board in the right direction. the main things different are bottom rocker and tail v and the FCS fins. my last board was 6' and had more tail v. I could make quick subtle adjustments by just leaning, with little tail use. this board seems to need a lot of tail pressure to turn. Iím wondering if besides the bottom shaping I need to get a different size/shape FCS fin kit? There are G1-6 plus a new GS-1 center fin. what are the real world differences and which do you suggest I try first in place of the G6 I have? thanks

!

gleshna@aol.com wrote: >I have a new 3/5 wetsuit and plan to push surfing in the cold lower this >winter. So far I usually stop at 45water/45 air and just use dishwashing >gloves. I would appreciate any shared experiences on the best gloves for >cold air or cold water.

I use a pair of Alder 2mm webs when it gets too cold. They have smoothskin palms which helps the grip, and added Velcro straps. When I take them off again in the spring it feels like I'm paddling with straws. ATB, Ric

O'Neill and Hotline surf-specific gloves are good. Most dive gloves will work as well, and are often cheaper. I like the slight webbed effect of neoprene gloves, as well as the warming effect. It's like shifting to a lower gear. In bigger surf, usually there's only time for a few strokes; with gloves they are more effective strokes. When gloves (inevitably) start to break down at the fingertips, the goop called Aquaseal does a good job of extending their expensive little lives. Will

Subject: Re: shaping and glassing texts?
Date: 6 Nov 1995
Organization: M.A.G. Information Services

I want to make a new board myself, but I'd like to read about how it's done

Try calling Clark Foam in Laguna Niguel, CA or Resin Research in Melbourne, Florida, I hear Styrene/epoxy is a little harder to work with. You use a sanding drum, which gives the planer a different feel, and the glassing process isn't as forgiving as polyester.

The famous book by Orbellian gives a great overview of the process.  The best of luck to you. Bob

Subject: Re: Pintails Date: 6 Nov 1995
Organization: PRISM Surf Designs

>I'm thinking about getting a 7'2" Channel Island pintail (18 3/4" wide). >I've never surfed a pintail, and I haven't surfed a 7'2" since I first >started surfing 27 years ago. I surf mostly at point breaks here in >Northern LA County, and sometimes in Mex or Costa Rica.

> >What's the story on pintails anyhow? I'm hoping for speed and control in >the pit (i.e., I want more barrels!).

> Pin tails hold in well in big, powerful surf because of the limited amount of area in the tail and the great amount of turbulence (drag). More control, but a lot of speed is sacrificed for the control. What some call a positive feel in the pin tail is actually resistance. The resistance can be negated by putting a greater degree of cant on the leading fins. More cant creates lift in the tail, which could be a problem in powerful surf. Sounds like a conundrum, huh?

Some people love pin tails, others love them. It just depends on the individual.

You might try a twinzer type. If the fins and rails are set up properly they will hold in better than a pin and give you greater speed than a square tail.

From: jameswar@microsoft.com (James R. Ward)
Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Duct tape (was Making Surfboards Fly)
Date: 10 Nov 1995

>>I was wondering if anyone knows which airlines (for the continental US) >>are best, and don't try to screw you out of as much money as possible for >>these "odd" pieces of luggage. Also, what are the best means of >>protecting them from the systems that seem so bent on destroying them? >> >>Dave M.

> >As far as packing them, I like the looks of the way Bob Pearson >packs his for shipping, foam blocks between the fins, bubble wrap >and wide tape. Not duct tape, really duct tape is for kooks dings. >..flamebait, arrrrr! Yeah, then put a sock on it and a good >sleeping bag or board bag or a box. Seems like there's an article >in just about every surfing magazine published, but basically >pad it well and go.... > >fang

Definitely flamebait! I know you saw 200 stories of 'The time duct tape saved my life' coming over the wire....my entry:

17 years old, down in Baja, Punta Abreojos the destination. We were about 40 miles north at the time that my friends '69 Dodge van blew a belt. Oh man, what a pain. We'd never been to Abreojos, had been working our way farther and farther south for a couple of years, we knew that there were waves and just wanted to get there and get some sleep (it was getting pretty late, dark for a few hours already).

So we cleaned out half of the van to get to the engine (the access cover was in the middle of the front seat) and finally pulled the belt out. Obviously we didn't have a spare belt (although by that time we'd learned enough from previous trips to have a starter, battery, etc., etc....everything but what we really_needed). So after a few minutes of trying to adapt another spare belt to fit, I took the duct tape (oh savior) and wrapped the belt around several times, then got it in place inside the engine and wrapped more tape around the belt, then moved it so the covered part was exposed and wrapped that, then moved it again, just getting it tighter and tighter until I'd pretty much used up that roll of tape. Got it to where the damn thing was pretty tight. Good thing there was enough clearance, 'cause the tape made the belt stick out a little farther than normal......anyway, it got us that extra 40 miles, where we promptly camped for 5 days and surfed incredible 4-6 foot point waves, one day I remember being pretty big, probably 5-7 with 8/9 foot sneaker sets. paying dues.....until we didn't have any boards left (I broke two that trip)......... Any other good duct tape stories out there? Peace, Jim

From: gjohnson@dream.season.com (Reality is a point of view) Newsgroups: alt.surfing
Subject: Re: Anybody re-attached a fin? Need advice
Date: 9 Jan 1996

+-- I need some advice on putting a fin back on.

Never done it myself. Paraphrasing from an old copy of _The Ding Repair Scriptures_ by George Colendich . . .

Get a grinder. If there is any board delamination at all deal with it. Grind the old rope off of the fin. Grind the old cloth off of the fin. Or get a new one. Prep the slot. Allow for fin glass. If there is _ANY_ board delamination at all deal with it.

| How much angle should the outside fins have from vertical?

Use cardboard to take the angle of the fin that remains and use that on the other side. Be patient as you tape it into place. If you can't do that then maybe the original shaper has the angle spec for that board.

| What is the general order between cloth/rope - is there a layer of | cloth first then the rope then some more cloth?

Rope under cloth. Cloth over entire fin. Twice.

Cut some cloth that will cover the fin and overlap onto the existing board glass, flap-like. The flap is your stress defense. 6 oz.

Glass around the fin slot, unless you don't need to qcel the board and the fin glass will overlap the board glass as is. It is said that the ripped fin slot that doesn't need prepping is a rare thing.

Coat the fin with resin. If you did glass around the slot it should still be wet when you do the fin glassing.

_Saturate_ the rope and lay it along the fin, avoiding bubbles. Add the fin cloth. Press the rope into the base of the fin. Do the other side. Then brush on some more resin. Then lay down the second layer of fin glass.

Squeegee, taking care not to separate the glass from the rope. Hot coat. Trim.

Grind and sand, after a long wait. Rope that isn't completely set and dry will cause much grief.

| How far does the cloth need to go up the fin?

+---- All the way. Twice. Accurate details can be had from Village Green Publications 6362 Glenhaven Road Soquel CA 95073

The Ding Repair Scriptures $8.95 + $1.50 shipping. CA residents add sales tax. Overseas add $1.50 more for more shipping. All prices subject to inflation.

I'm not connected to the author or company, just a fan of the book(let). Great step by step how to, cool cartoons, lots of 'what to avoid's. A classic.

-- Gary Johnson "The numbers themselves may be our best tools."